WEB SITE: http://www.qsl.net/miarc September, 2000 e-mail: miarc@egroups.com


Next Meeting: Sunday, September 10, 2000

Delta Twp. Fire Department Time: 1:00 PM

Minutes MARC JUNE, 2000

The JUNE 4TH meeting of MARC was held at the Oakland Co. Emergency annex. The meeting was called to order by Kelly KB8WRG at 1:21 PM.

Minutes from the previous meeting were not available.

The Treasurers report was turned over to Kelly by former Treasurer Oesch. Funds totaled $ 3,456.19. The MARC Board has appointed Joel W8HIU as Treasurer, to complete the vacant term.

Introductions were made of everyone present. Those board members present were Kelly,KB8WRG,Joel,W8HIU, and Ron, N8JAZ.

The Newsletter was discussed and the Snail mail version was not produced because of difficulties with time and format. Ed Zupan, KC8MFO, is the editor.

Bylaw committee had no report, but noted that there were problems getting into the e groups. Kelly will check it out.

Database mgr Bruce, N8UT, still is not feeling well. The two meter coordinator Bill,K5EKP, was required to work at the campgrounds.

The USECA group has not received any correspondence regarding re-coordination. They must reapply for re-coordination. A lengthy discussion followed by various people present. Wallace Murray gave some insight on some of the problems and will volunteer to help with the interference, and possible rewording of the Bylaws. He is a repeater trustee and also in commercial communications.

Dennis, W8DFG, made a motion to table discussion of interference problems with the 147.180. This was supported by W8RO Floyd. Motion carried. A new TDS will have to be filed by N8SA the trustee and W8DFG.

A motion was made by Joel, W8HIU, to reimburse Board members the standard IRS allowable travel expenses when on official MARC business with Board approval as reasonable and documented. The motion was supported by N8SA Bill. Motion carried.

A nominating Committee will be appointed by the Board for the elections at the September meeting. Nominations from the floor will also be accepted.

The September MARC meeting was motioned to be held at the Delta fire station by W8HIU, Joel. Motion supported by W8RO, Floyd. Motion carried.

The SEPTEMBER MEETING of MARC WILL BE SEPT 10 because of the Labor Day holiday. Our Bylaws state the first SATURDAY or SUNDAY following the first Monday in September.

A motion by N8SA, Bill to place new repeater coordination's in the newsletter. Motion seconded by Floyd, W8RO. Motion carried.

W8HIU motioned to adjourn the meeting. Motion supported by K8CFY. Motion carried.

A tour of the well equipped EOC facilities by W8HIU followed.

Respectfully Submitted, Ron Huber, N8JAZ.


Treasurer's Report

MARC has funds in the Oakland County Credit Union. Our present balance is $3803.40. All outstanding bills have been paid as of this date. The only expense reported since our last board meeting was a check for $118.95 for Kelly Karpp. This was for mileage to our June meeting, per the vote at our June meeting to reasonable pay expenses for Board members. Income during this same period was $78.00, consisting of dues and application fees. One money order for $8.00 was returned to the sender, since it was for a coordination renewal. (We do not charge for renewals of coordination.)

Respectfully submitted, Joel Goldberg, W8HIU, Treasurer.

From The Presidents Desk

Once again I come to you with a heavy heart. MARC Inc. has received the resignation from Bill Gilbert our Vice President and 2 mtr and down coordinator, see attached. MARC Inc. will now be taking applications for the appointment of Vice President to fill the remainder of the 2 year term. Bruce Winchell has agreed to temporally serve as all band coordinator. If you have an interest in helping your repeater council please notify us at MIARC@egroups.com or MARC Inc. PO Box 127 Oscoda Mi. 48750.

On another subject, Joel had suggested at the March meeting to reimburse MARC Board members true cost for expenses incurred for travel to and from the quarterly MARC meetings and/or other MARC business. After some discussion, a motion was made and seconded with a vote taken to pay all MARC Board members the standard IRS travel rate for travel expenses. After seeing the results of this action ( I had submitted the 366 miles driven to and from the March meeting and received check #509 for $118.95, which I have not and will not cash. It will be turned back into the treasurer because the true expense for that trip was $23.00 for fuel) I submit that this is excessive compensation. The only reason I had turned in my milage was to make this point. The original intent of this motion was for Board members to be compensated for actual costs incurred. Thus encouraging them to attend any and all Board functions. The way it passed is excessive and unnecessary in my opinion. I would hope we would revisit this issue at the next quarterly meeting in September.

We have included a copy of the TDS (technical data sheet with instructions) in this news letter please save for future use.

Kelly Karpp, KB8RWG

President MARC Inc.


Your Repeater Council Board

  Kelly Karpp, KB8RWG  Ron Huber, N8JAZ  R. M. Gordon, W8YUC
  4321 Bamfield Road  7135 Bradley Road  7172 Sharp Road
  Glennie, Mi. 48737  Saginaw, Mi. 48601-9413  Swartz Creek, Mi. 48473
  (517) 735-2091  (517) 777-5996  (810) 655-6391
Vice President
Data Base Manager & Coordinator
  Open  Joel Goldberg, W8HIU  Bruce Winchell, N8UT
    6762 Red Cedar Lane  5354 Baker Road
    West Bloomfield, Mi. 48324  Bridgeport, Mi. 48722
    (248) 360-2092  (517) 777-8147

Page 2

Database Manager's Report

The July 15 reporting date for inclusion in next years ARRL Directory has passed. I will attempt to make entries right up until the publishing deadline, but no promises. If your repeater appears in red in the latest posting to the website, it is delinquent. Only those with reporting dates in 1999 and 2000 are current. I still am sifting through some problems which take a lot of time to resolve. The reason that they take a lot of time is that the trustees take forever to answer simple questions when I send them out. Some never answer at all. This is demoralizing.

At present, the repeater database table shows 616 total records. 137 entries show delinquent TDS reporting dates and about half of them are repeaters. 114 entries carry a last reporting date of 1997 or earlier 48 of those are repeaters.These and more machines have administrative (problem) markers on them in the DB which keeps them from being listed on the website and ARRL Directory. The address table has 425 entries.

Coordinators Report

One machine has been coordinated during this quarter. About 10 rx links and control freqs have been coordinated. There may be some more repeaters coordinated before the September meeting. I will update at that time. Latest repeater coordination went to K8PLW on 224.620/223.020 in Milford. This was a re-assignment of the KA8BFF coordination that was in Holly.

Bruce's Corner

As you all know, I have spent a lot of time with the database over the past 2 years. I continue to be amazed that people don't keep records of their repeaters and links. Please get a file folder and set up a station file with all the information and correspondence regarding your repeater(s) and links.

It also amazes me that people think we are somehow too stupid to see a developing falsehood in the records. I can tell you right here that the TDS form is well designed and has some hidden traps in it to catch those who would attempt to fool us. There are a number of "red flags" that we look for. No, I won't tell you what they are. I will give you but one small example. We get TDS forms that indicate that the trustee really doesn't know where his machine is located. Every time we get a TDS from him, the coordinates are different. This is a red flag. 90% of the time, when we do some time consuming in depth research, we have found that this condition eventually reveals a "paper" repeater. It does not exist. Repeaters that are seriously delinquent in reporting their status are also prone to be 95% paper repeaters. The numbers and data do not lie. There are many indicators that problems exist and they are not hard to spot with just a bit of experience. Why not be straight up? Why make us chase you down before you reveal the honest and (really) obvious truth? It's a massive waste of time and money. Be honest. It's easier.

For those who gripe about having to fill out a TDS form, a bit of "news"? Unless you have a quadrant level repeater, you only have to file a TDS every TWO years for your repeaters and links. Quadrant machines have to report every year. (BTW, I have never seen a proper report from a quadrant machine. Check the Standards and Procedures.) I have observed a number of TDS "strings" sent where several TDS forms were filled out and sent one after the other. The time differential between reports is 8 to 10 minutes. I totally disagree with the non sequitur proposed by those continual gripers who say they "don't have time" (10 minutes) to fill one out every two years. Seems to me that everyone has the same amount of time alloted in each year of life. Most people send in their reports regularly. Pardon me, but this does not compute. (Maybe it's the head injury I suffered?). The Funny part is.....they always say this in a letter or email that obviously took more than 10 minutes to compose; which always states nothing has changed (wanna bet?RED FLAG!!) about their machine. And...they send us one of these letters every six months just to reinforce their point! Go figure.....

Page 3


To MARC Board and Members

After a couple months of hard deliberation, I hereby tender my resignation from all MARC offices and positions, effective immediately. I do this for the following reasons:

First: The purpose and intent of the MARC has drifted from what I feel it should be. This is due to the influence of some of the large clubs and associations. These large clubs, with lots of members and money, are gradually and successfully attempting to twist the MARC Bylaws, Standards and Procedures out of context to fit their own private agendas. One group in particular is flooding the membership roster (with people who have no connection with any repeater and no real knowledge of repeater operations and problems) through a loophole in the bylaws that says any licensed amateur can join and have a vote, and they can now easily turn all motions and major changes in the MARC to suit their own special interests.

I fully expect that they will take over the MARC and re-write the ruling documents to their own ends and to the detriment of the majority of small system repeater owners and sponsors. Through requiring high priced and unnecessary spectrum analysis studies and signal propagation studies, they could make it impossible for anyone but the rich, high influence clubs to put up or maintain a repeater. These are the kinds of things they have talked about as being "needed."

These groups are trying to turn the MARC into a politicized, psuedo-professional "business" instead of a well intended, volunteer public service. I feel that the MARC exists to service our hobby by keeping some semblance of order. I do not feel that the high powered business atmosphere being created, complete with threats of lawsuits, is what the MARC was intended to be; namely, a volunteer organizational effort to keep things in reasonable order, keep repeaters from being able to interfere, and protect our frequency spectrum allocations.

Unwarranted personal assaults and threats of legal actions that could potentially damage members of the Board and their families are not constructive, are demoralizing, and they have occurred. This is what we get for trying to follow the bylaws and do our jobs?

Second: The majority of the MARC members do not actively support the MARC by giving us any input that is not self serving, or by attending our meetings. We are constantly subjected to non-supportive actions such as lying on TDS forms about system moves and specifications, not answering questions about systems when we ask, gripes about spending 10 minutes every two years to file a TDS, etc. This is not what I expected when I came on board. I felt that the members were interested in making the whole repeater scene more accurate and effective. They obviously are not. The silent inactivity of the majority is inviting the self serving tyranny of the large club minority.

Third: For the past two months, I have been willing and attempting to re-coordinate a repeater for a big club that was de-coordinated for not following the Standards and Procedures in refusing to properly communicate with us. I have received virtually no input from the other Board members OR the repeater Trustee involved. I need both before I can complete this mess. Some hard-headed reactions from the Board and total non participation on the part of the Trustee make me wonder if either party truly wishes to put the matter to rest. If the MARC Board doesn't want it to end, I want no more to do with them. If the Trustee does not respond, the probable reason is that the big club wants to falsely use it as a campaign issue in the upcoming MARC elections. This is but one example of the kind of stuff that has constantly frustrated me. I have had enough. I am done.

I want this published in the September MARC newsletter. The members have a right to know what is going on and why.


Page 4









Michigan Area Repeater Council Technical Data Sheet

Action Requested

New Coordination___ Reassignment ___ Modify Existing Coordination___ Renewal Update___

System Type

_____ Repeater _____ One Way Link _____ Two Way Link _____ Multi Location Link

Frequency Information

Band: _______________ Output Freq.:____________ Input Freq.: __________ Control Freq.: __________

System Status

In Operation: ______ Will Be On By: __________ Not Used (return to frequency pool) _______

Sponsorship (Sponsor is the holder of the coordination)

Sponsor: ____________________________ Trustee: _______________________ Station Call: ___________

System Owner: ____________________________________________________________________________

System Information

City Identified With System:___________________________________________ Return Form To:

Geographic Area Served: _____________________________________________ MARC Inc.

County (transmitter located): __________________________________________ PO Box 127

Repeater Address :___________________________________________________ Oscoda, Mi. 48750

Location Of Receiver If Different Than Above: ___________________________________________________

Coordinates To The Nearest Second: Latitude ________________ Longitude__________________________

Ground Elevation Above Sea Level (AMSL):__________________ Ant Height Above Ground: ____________

Height Above Average Terrain (HAAT):_________________________________________________________

Date system was originally coordinated: ______/_______/_______

Michigan Coordination number: ____________ ARRL Coordination number:_____________

Antenna & Power Information

Antenna Gain : ________ dB Omni Or Directional : _______ Bearing Of Ant (if directional) ____________

Power To Antenna: _____________ Watts E.R.P. In Watts : _____________________

Access Mode

______(O) Open ______ ( C ) Closed _____(PL)CTCSS Freq.________ DTMF (T) _____ Digital (Y) ______

Do you want this Repeater listed in the ARRL Directory? Yes _____ No _____

Do you want your PL Tone/DTMF Access sequence Published? Yes_____ No _____

System Features

A= Autopatch CA= Closed Patch DS= Dual Squelch E= Emergency Power L= Linked

P= Portable System PKT= Digital Packet Capability R/r = RACES A/a = ARES

X= Wide Area (requires Quadrant App) Y= RTTY/ASCII z/Z= Direct Access To Police (911) WX = Weather Net

Your Features : ________________________________________________________________________________

Trustee Information

Name : __________________________________________ Callsign :________________________________

Address : _______________ ________________________ City : __________________________________

State : _________ Zip Code : __________ Day Phone (___)____________ Night (____)_________________

Email Address: ____________________________________________________________________________

I want to receive the MARC Newsletter by: Email Only ________ Regular Mail only _________

I certify that I have read and agree to abide by the MARC Standards and that the statements

above are true, complete and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.


Signature: __________________________________________ Date : ________________________________



This form explains how to fill out the MARC TDS form. It does not cover every box/line. This is to be filed only

by a licensed amateur radio operator. The person filling out this form should be the Trustee of the repeater. The

trustee normally is the control operator and has sole responsibility for all correspondence with the MARC. This form

must be complete and all appropriate boxes checked.


1.Check New Coordination for a frequency not currently assigned to you or when requesting an additional link frequency, to change location, ERP, antenna height, or any other operation that will change the technical parameters of the system. Explain the modification desired in the AComments@ area.

2. Check Modify Existing Coordination for a change in call sign, Trustee, access mode or system features.

3. Check Renewal Update when making the required two-year update of the MARC inc. files

SYSTEM TYPE: Check only one box in this section. Use an individual form for each component such as a transmitter, link, system, or remote receivers.


1. For a New Coordination, indicate the desired band only.

All other actions require entering coordinated frequency data.

SYSTEM STATUS: AWill Be On By@ enter date only if the system has been off-line for some reason. AProposed@ is only for new coordination=s If system is coordinated and on the air use AOperational@.

SPONSORSHIP: The sponsor is the actual holder of the coordination. Enter sponsor name, club or organization.

Trustee enter name and call sign of individual in control of the repeater.

Station Call is the call sign on the repeater ID.


1.Geographic Area Served Please use the 4 quadrant indicator NE, NW, SE, SW given I-75, US-27, & US-127 as the north/south line and 46 as the east/west line.

2. Note Location of Receiver if different from the transmitter location.

Coordinates provide the Latitude and Longitude to nearest second . (Required) Entries with double zeros in the seconds position are not acceptable. The AMSL and COORDINATES are derived from a USGS 7 2 minute quadrangle map or GPS device.

Exact Location: this is the address where the repeater is located.

ANTENNA & POWER INFORMATION: Please note the Power to Antenna does not refer to transmit power out of the transmitter, but to the actual power that reaches the feed point of the antenna. There are significant power losses in duplexers and feed lines. Please calculate these losses.

ACCESS MODE & SYSTEM FEATURES: The letter codes next to each box indicate the coding that will appear in the repeater directory. Check boxes as they apply to your system.

TRUSTEE INFORMATION: Enter information about the person who is responsible for communicating with the MARC. This is usually the Trustee.

CERTIFICATION: This is information about the Trustee, with whom the MARC communicates.

DATE: Please be sure to date this form where indicated.

NOTE if this frequency had been coordinated to another individual, organization or group, a letter of reassignment from the original coordination owner MUST accompany this request form.

COORDINATION PROCESSING FEES: Be sure to include the appropriate Coordination Processing Fee with your TDS if this is an application for a new coordination or re-coordination; do to extensive modifications or a move.

Official Absentee Ballot

Please use this as your absentee ballot for the September elections. The office of President, Secretary, and one Director are up for election. Pursuant to our Bylaws and Standards, your dues must be currant 24 hours prior to the date of the election Sunday September 10, 2000. Mail ballot's to MARC PO Box 127 Oscoda, Mi. 48750

Please clearly mark on the exterior of the envelope your call sign and the word's election ballot that will ensure the vote will not be opened prior to the election date.



Kelly Karpp KB8RWG



Ron Huber N8JAZ






Membership Form

(Please Print)

Name: _______________________________ Call Sign: ____________________

Address: _____________________________ City: ________________________

State: _______ Zip: ____________ E-mail: ______________________________

Day Phone: (____)____________ Night Phone: (_____)___________________

Club or Repeater Affiliation: ______________________________________________

Check One [ ] Full Member ($15) [ ] Associate Member ($7.50)

Send Checks to: Joel Goldberg, W8HIU 6762 Red Cedar Lane, West Bloomfield, Mi. 48324